This is a follow-up conversation after Patrick and I saw Batman Vs. Superman Dawn of Justice. Part 1 of this conversation was: Is it Better to be a Savior or a Vigilante?
Patrick can be found on Twitter: @Man of Tomorrow. Patrick is my superhero vendor. He introduced me to Justice League 8 and convinced me to watch Arrow. I’m a novice in the comic book world. Patrick brings a deep knowledge about the battle between Superman and Batman.
Derek: All right Patrick, let’s do a follow up to the original conversation about Vigilante vs. Savior. I’d love to hear your initial reaction to Batman vs. Superman: Dawn of Justice. What were your initial thoughts when this movie ended?
Patrick: I actually loved the movie. My best friend and I wound up seeing it 5 times opening weekend, and I’ve been a total of six times.
I understand people’s dislike for it, but for me, I see film adaptations of comic book characters as different interpretations, and I’m just fine with how things are going. But I get that it’s tough for people to let go of the ideal visions in their minds (i.e. Christopher Reeve).
But for me, the movie was cool, looked awesome, and I thought Affleck’s Batman was the most interesting Batman/Bruce Wayne they’ve ever put on film. The movie raises a lot of questions, and I think it just suffers from Zack Snyder not being a very good director. I don’t hate him like most do, but he’s definitely not Christopher Nolan, et al.
It got me super excited for Wonder Woman, Justice League, and everything else they’re doing. I just uh, wouldn’t be upset if Justice League: Part One was Snyder’s last round with the DC films.
Derek: I’m with you. I enjoyed the experience immensely! I just didn’t feel like I was at a movie. It was sort of like a bunch of small storylines put together. I felt like my mind had to make great leaps sometimes to understand why people were so upset: the committee hearing, Batman, Superman and Lex Luhtor (Jr). The stuff in between was great though. What are your big questions heading into the rest of the franchise?
Patrick: Yeah, unfortunately it was kind of all over the place, and character motives weren’t very clear. In those cases, such as, why did Lex hate Superman so much? I just subconsciously filled in those gaps with what I already know about Lex’s character in general, and it usually doesn’t make me like the movie any less.
Well, first, I am kind of shocked by the ending. Superman will obviously return, but they can’t logically bring Clark Kent back from the dead. That will make me sad, as I love Clark Kent as much as Superman.
Lots of questions though about the larger DCEU. There were plenty of nods to Darkseid, the quintessential DC villain (and Marvel’s Thanos is a blatant rip-off of his character).
Was the Flash really speaking to Bruce through the Speed Force from the future, or from an alternate Earth, or alternate future? I wouldn’t have minded if that scene had been cut, but it seemed to lay some mysterious groundwork for the next films.
I could go on…
Derek: How interesting would it be if Superman wasn’t in the first half of the Justice League. Imagine the Justice league having to fill in for a world without Superman. This is one of the more interesting plot angles I feel like?
Also, any insight on this Flash? Are we still dealing with Barry Allen (CW TV SHOW Fame, but I know it’s a different actor) or is this someone else entirely.
Patrick: Yeah, while I knew Doomsday was in this film, for some reason it never crossed my mind that they would adapt Death of Superman. I assumed just being two movies into the universe; it’d be pretty crazy to “kill” Superman, especially since the very next film with him in it would be Justice League! Seemed like a very risky move.
I honestly can’t remember when it happened or what comic, but Batman and Superman were arguing about something, and Batman pointed out the only time Superman really inspired people, was when he was dead. And many people stepped up to fill in for him during the Reign of the Supermen story.
It would be great to see more of Batman’s tactical side, and Wonder Woman’s ability to be the battle-hardened leader she apparently is, with no Superman. Usually, leadership falls on those three, and Superman is often deferred to, or seen as the “de facto leader”. I’m also unsure how they would play Justice League Part 1 and 2. Will a lead-up villain be in Part 1, leaving Darkseid for Part 2? All due respect to everyone else, but Superman has always kind of been the only one who can handle Darkseid, without some gimmick or plot device.
And yes, this Flash is Barry Allen, but he obviously does not fit the old appearance of Barry (neither does Grant Gustin). That was one of my issues with that scene; he didn’t really look like Flash. He was wearing armor? It was just strange. But the Flash is generally the only time-traveler around, and Barry has been the one that generally does it, with drastic side effects.
Derek: So, I’ve only seen the movie once, but I must say that watching Batman and Superman fight on the big screen was just a tiny bit painful. It would be like Kermit the Frog and Elmo going after each other with scissors, but worse because Batman and Superman are such good friends. What was your initial reaction to that scene? What perceptions changed for you after watching the movie a few (a half dozen) times?
Patrick: I’ve seen Batman and Superman get into skirmishes before in the comics and the animated series, so it wasn’t a total shock, and it’s kind of a hallmark of their first meetings in any form. But, I enjoyed the fight! The whole “who would win” debate is kind of silly in my opinion. The only way Batman ever wins is via Kryptonite, and the only way he gets to use it is by taking advantage of the fact that Superman does not want to kill him. If Superman really wanted to, Batman would die before he could even get his Kryptonite ammo loaded.
One of my complaints is that I wish Superman had pleaded with Bruce more in those moments. He started to explain, but then quickly abandoned that route. I would have liked to see him stay defensive and refuse to fight, trying to explain the situation to Bruce. But once he gets hit with Kryptonite, I can understand him entering fight-or-flight mode, especially when his mother’s life is at stake.
I really enjoyed the moment Superman gets through to Bruce. I do wish they had spent more time on it, because it does seem abrupt that they’re suddenly friends. But, to me, Bruce finally saw Clark as human, realizing he had a mother and seeing him as a man, just like Bruce. That was a good moment for me; maybe cheesy, but whatever.
Derek: I’ve been thinking a bit about villains. I remember getting really excited hearing that Eddie Murphy was going to be Riddler a decade ago and it never happened. As a Batman fan, I just love all of the villains. Are there any villains you hope make an appearance in the rest of the jumbo franchise?
Patrick: Now and forever: Darkseid.
He’s my all-time favorite villain, to the point where he’s maybe my favorite comic book character after Superman, LOL. I didn’t get introduced to him until the Superman Animated Series, but have sine gone back and read Jack Kirby’s New Gods, and pretty much anything else that has Darkseid in it.
To me, he’s just super cool, and absolute evil. His goal is to remove the free will from all life in the universe, to where only his survives, leaving him to rule everything. The “Anti-Life Equation” is what he’s always seeking to accomplish this goal. Plus, his history with the New Gods is interesting; I’d love to see the New Gods, Apokolips and New Genesis on screen.
Other than Darkseid, really Metallo is one of my favorite Superman villains, and I caught in Batman Vs. Superman, a scientist credited as “Emmett Vale,” who was the creator of the Kryptonite-hearted cyborg. I loved him in the animated series.
But, also, Black Adam (Teth-Adam) is one of my favorite comic book characters, and goes back and forth between anti-hero and villain. He’s a villain mainly for Shazam! but has fought against the Justice League and others, too, given his power level. The Rock is already signed on to play him in Shazam! a few years from now, which has me totally stoked, because I love The Rock, haha.
Derek: Well, I think that about wraps this up. Any final thoughts on what we should take out of this movie? What’s next on the excitement list? Captain America: Civil War? Suicide Squad? Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them? Finding Dory?
Patrick: For me, it accomplished its goal in getting me extremely excited for Wonder Woman, she was so awesome in the Batman vs. Superman, and Justice League. To be honest, the thing I’m enjoying most out of Man of Steel & Batman vs. Superman is how DC is saying “here is your real world, and we’re dropping superheroes in it.” That may not be people’s cup of tea, or the escape some are looking for, but it’s incredibly interesting and appealing to me.
I’m definitely excited for Suicide Squad, and Civil War. But honestly, after Batman Vs. Superman, those will just hold me over until Wonder Woman in June 2017. That’s the one I’m most looking forward to!
Derek: Yeah, Gal Gadot (Wonder Woman) rocked in the movie! Thanks for your insight!